Amsterdamistan?
Hello Optimates, AsianSmiths here. I've been graciously invited to contribute to your blog and I'd like to kick off with the following article from WorldNetDaily: "Official OK with Islamic law in Netherlands" [referenced through the Religion Clause Blog ] A short excerpt:
"For me it is clear: If two-thirds of the Dutch population should want to introduce the Sharia tomorrow, then the possibility should exist," [The Netherlands' justice minister Piet Hein Donner] said. "It would be a disgrace to say: 'That is not allowed!'"
As Prometheus said during our discussion of this: "yes, let's take the constitutional out of constitutional democracy - brilliant idea", but after second consideration, if there is a point where 2/3rds of the population of the Netherlands supports Sharia, is it even the Netherlands anymore? The question for me is, would the Netherlands be in the right to cut off Muslim immigration, or use extraordinary methods to enforce intergration and assimilation in order to make sure it never gets to a point where a majority of its citizenry would dissolve the state and remake it in the model of Sharia? Furthermore, with people such as Justice Minister Donner who seem to accept the suicide of their state and way of life with the equanimity of Brahmin cows, would it even be possible for the Dutch, and countries who are confronted by the same problem, such as France and Britian, to even contemplate taking such an action?
posted by AsianSmiths @ 11:18 AM
5 Comments:
"...if there is a point where 2/3rds of the population of the Netherlands supports Sharia, is it even the Netherlands anymore?"
No, of course it won't be the Netherlands and yes the people of that country have every right to try and prevent that day from ever coming. To do otherwise would be national suicide. The question is whether there is any will left at all for the Netherlands or other Western countries to prevent national suicide, considering the LOW birthrates in those countries and high Muslim immigration rates. Even if they cut off Muslim immigration Islam may still become a majority if current Islamic birthrates in those countries continue.
Sharia and Islam sometimes seem inevitable as it seems that the West has lost its will to live. That loss of will is the only way Islam could be victorious.
Yeah, I don’t really think the west has lost its ‘Will to Live.’
First of all, a lot of the articles about the ‘teaming masses of Muslims’ pouring into Europe would lead to you believe that if you were to walk down the street in Amsterdam, all you would see are women in chadors walking 4 feet behind the men. I mean, everyone knows that the only people walking around downtown Amsterdam are stoned American tourists.
Secondly, by the will to live, what most people seem to mean is declining birth rates. It’s something that could be questioned, but not panicked over. We’re hardly at a point where we’re going to see Europeans as we know them are not going to disappear off the face of the earth in the next 100 years. Again, problems, yes, but nothing that is going to spell disaster at this point from a birth rate perspective. And I can’t help but think that a lot of the people shouting about the West coming to an end as we know it have, well, some racist undertones there. I include Europeans in this group. Cultural identities there are primarily based on having ‘Dutch,’ ‘German,’ or ‘French’ bloodlines, and anyone who doesn’t share that heritage is a foreigner, no matter if their family immigrated there 5 years ago or 100 years ago. So what if 100 years from now The Netherlands is less white and less Christian? Do we bemoan the loss of the look of ancient Egyptians, who intermarried with their Arab invaders to the point that their racial makeup looks more Arabic and less African than it did several thousand years ago? Do we wish that the US looked like it did 200 years ago? Frankly, the more immigration becomes a common thing in this world, the less any one race, religion, ethnicity, or nationality is going to look like we’re used to them looking like.
Of course, this utopia of many races would require Europe, The Netherlands, and the world at large to do something that we in the US talk a great deal about but haven’t really mastered – integrating a foreign culture into our national identity. This is the other part of the West losing it’s ‘will to live,’ and it’s the one that we should be focusing on.
What The Netherlands, and what Europe should do to stem the problems that arise from massive immigration from Asian and African countries is not restrict immigration by a person’s religion (talk about racist), nor is it forcing people to have more babies (an idea that’s been tossed around in Japan, which also has a declining birth rate), but they need to realize what it is their country stands for, besides a shared heritage. In the Netherlands, that means stressing the qualities of tolerance, reason, and friendliness, (not to mention an obsession with bike-riding), none of which would go away if there were a higher (moderate) Muslim population in the country. Right now the Netherlands is waking up to the fact that their live-and-let-live attitude regarding their immigrants may be a problem, letting ideals that are very non-Dutch run rampant in neighborhoods where the Muslim immigrants are basically left to police themselves. At least they don’t have as far to go as France, who like to put their poor immigrants in ghettos and do whatever they can to remind them that they’re not French.
Now, how do they achieve this immigration? Well, time helps. Time helped the poor, illiterate, easily-swayed masses of immigrants in the United States turn into, well, us. I have reasonable confidence that in another generation or two the Mexican immigrants that cause Pat Buchanan and others so much stress will be far more integrated into American society as well. Now, Europe is different, I know. They need… well, better economic chances for immigrants, policing neighborhoods, cracking down on hate speech, encouraging moderate imams, offering more scholarships to Muslim students… I don’t really have a solid answer to that. I do know, however, that the West is not in any way dying, nor has it lost its will to live. It just needs a few adjustments, and we need to learn that countries, and the racial/religious makeup of countries, is not something that’s going to stay the same forever.
By the way, I cribbed heavily from this Slate article, which is great reading if you get the chance.
http://www.slate.com/id/2136964/
"Do we bemoan the loss of the look of ancient Egyptians, who intermarried with their Arab invaders to the point that their racial makeup looks more Arabic and less African than it did several thousand years ago?"
I'm sure in 2,000 years we won't "bemoan the loss of the look" of the ancient Darfur Africans, either. I'm sure as they are invaded by Sudanese Arabs bent on genocide even now, the first thing they think is "I really hope no one misses my distinctive nose in the future."
My somewhat sarcastic point is this: arguments about 'the death of the West' have less to do with racial makeup and a bit more to do with the dangers of the radical ideology of many of the immigrants. In that sense, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, born without a drop of Dutch blood, is ten times the 'Westerner' as her neighbors who expelled her from the country.
Indeed, if the West is in no danger, and if only stoned American tourists are walking Dutch streets, could you please tell me which one of them killed Theo Van Gogh in cold blood for insulting Islam?
It is not racist to draw a line in the sand against radicals who murder at the slightest perceived offense. Have many European countries made a bad mess of their immigrant policy? Yes, they have. But the last thing they should do is, as Asian Smiths said, sit like Brahmin cows and accept the inevitable victory of theocratic fascism.
Sorry about the multiple trashed comments, there was some problem with Blogger when I was trying to post this comment
Of course radical Islam and fundamentalism is a problem in Amsterdam, as it is everywhere else. I believe I mentioned that in my response. I was simply making that point that a lot of the people talking about the problem (not yourself, Tacitean, but other commentators and much of the European people) seemed to be unable to separate the fundamentalists newly active in their country from the immigrants who came there simply to live and to avoid persecution, but happen to have darker skin and wear different clothes. You could see the same panic in the US during the immigration debates, when every news story would show footage of East LA or El Paso, TX and how everyone there spoke SPANISH and were cleared ILLEGALS who were taking over the country.
Of course we need to crack down on fundamentalist hate speech and actions that runs counter to Western thinking, but we also need to recognize that while this is a problem, this isn’t a problem that’s reached epic proportions as of yet. The death of Theo Van Gogh is a tragedy (and I hope you could tell my comment about stoners in Amsterdam was a joke), and it does point to a larger problem, but again, perspective – this was one man shot by one fundamentalist, and the fact that there was a murder in their country, period, shocked the Dutch people. As I had mentioned, the Dutch (and Europe) need to come to terms with the fact that they are going to have a higher Muslim population in their country. After all, they had their colonization period, and are in a way responsible for the political instability that is bringing these immigrants to their country, so one could argue they have a responsibility to accept them. Accepting them, however, means recognizing that these immigrants can become Dutch citizens, and that their beliefs in and of themselves are not a threat to their society. It does not mean sitting back and letting Islamic fundamentalism go unchecked. I doubt you would find a lot of moderate Muslims who would favor instituting Sharia law. And I’m inclined to agree with Dawson about the prime minister’s thoughts – it’s possible he was making a point that their government follows the will of its people, and if their people want to change the system of government, it is their right to do so. He could say this knowing that that possibility wasn’t likely anytime soon. I do believe in my reply I put out several suggestions for how the Dutch could integrate these new immigrants into Dutch society and curb fundamentalist thought. Do you have better suggestions?
Frankly much of your post and the Fukayama article are symptomatic of decline and our will to live. I'm surprised Fukayama is still prattling his creedal nation twaddle; he has zero credibility after his "End of History" nonsense after the fall of the USSR. To quote Jim Kirk, "we haven't quite run out of history yet."
Moving on,
You said:
"Secondly, by the will to live, what most people seem to mean is declining birth rates. It’s something that could be questioned, but not panicked over. We’re hardly at a point where we’re going to see Europeans as we know them are not going to disappear off the face of the earth in the next 100 years. Again, problems, yes, but nothing that is going to spell disaster at this point from a birth rate perspective."
Palladius: Oh? Frankly birthrates are an indicator of the West's decline and your timeline is way off. At current demographic rates, Italy will have 15 million people at the end of this century; Sweden will be close to having 0. The rest of Europe, outside the Muslim population, isn’t much different. That isn't a cause for concern? It should be if you care at all about the unique cultures, languages and peoples of Europe.
You:
"And I can’t help but think that a lot of the people shouting about the West coming to an end as we know it have, well, some racist undertones there. Cultural identities there are primarily based on having ‘Dutch,’ ‘German,’ or ‘French’ bloodlines, and anyone who doesn’t share that heritage is a foreigner, no matter if their family immigrated there 5 years ago or 100 years ago. So what if 100 years from now The Netherlands is less white and less Christian?"
Palladius: That sentiment alone is a sign of defeat. If you are Dutch or Christian you should care. To not care means it doesn't matter to you if Sharia becomes the law of the land, that non-Muslims can be killed with impunity, that Muslims who convert to Christianity can and should be killed. Perhaps in 2,000 years our descendants (if the Europeans have any) won't care about that loss but our immediate descendants will because it will means years of hell for them as the West changes—declines—into something else.
One should admire other cultures, study their literature, history and languages but the second you stop caring about your own and practicing your own, stop have families and raise them in your tradition, I believe you are dead inside and so is your culture and nation.
You:
"In the Netherlands, that means stressing the qualities of tolerance, reason, and friendliness, (not to mention an obsession with bike-riding), none of which would go away if there were a higher (moderate) Muslim population in the country. "
Palladius: This is more of that creedal nation stuff, that a country is based on a common theme or creed as opposed to a nation being a common people with a common language, history culture. That works to a limited extent in the U.S. because for years we had perfected the melting pot but it can't work for Europe.
While I agree to an extent with Buchanan about the Mexican attempted Reconquista of the Southwest, I think we're lucky compared to Europe looking at the tide of immigrants we're getting compared to there. The Mexicans are from an essentially (not entirely but at its core) European based culture and share the same religion of the majority of people here—Christianity—and are far less of a threat to us than Islam is to Europe. Islam is not compatible with European or Western culture, as the Europeans are rapidly rediscovering. They spent centuries defending themselves from Islamic aggression (with a brief counterattack during the Crusades) and are starting to wake up that they must do so again. Hopefully it’s not too late.
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